Hollywood Roundtable: 4 Actresses Talk Sexism in Tinseltown
Take this sexism.
Given the recent reports of Harvey Weinstein's disgusting behavior, we are re-sharing this conversation, which took place this past July.
What’s it like being a woman in Hollywood? It’s a frustrating (and surely, aggravating) question on many fronts. Well, it’s like any other industry. There are moments of extreme pride and accomplishment. There are moments of doubt. Moments of anger and rage at endless sexism.
But we caught up with Natalie Morales, director, writer, and actress whom you'll see in the upcoming Emma Stone and Steve Carell flick, Battle of the Sexes, June Diane Raphael, actress, comedian, and writer who currently plays Jane Fonda's daughter and the CEO behind Lily Tomlin’s organic lube enterprise in the acclaimed Grace and Frankie, and Kulap Vilaysack, writer, actress, comedian, and the only female show-runner/EP alongside four male EP’s on Bajillion Dollar Propertie$ on Seeso to ask just that.
left to right: June Diane in Grace and Frankie; Natalie Morales for Into the Gloss shot by Tom Newton; and Kulap Vilaysack.
So, what’s it like as a woman in Hollywood?
Natalie Morales: This is a question I get a lot and I’m never sure how to answer because I don’t know what it’s like to be a man in Hollywood. I feel great. I love my industry. I love what I do and I love the people I meet.
June Diane Raphael: I love being a woman. And I love acting and writing and overall creating. Sometimes the combination of those two things can be frustrating, but being a woman is one of my favorite things to be!
Kuala Vilaysack: At the moment, I feel empowered and clear-eyed… Like Moana on the other side of the horizon. Now I know what you are thinking, “Kulap is very cool and accessible for connecting so strongly to an animated film made for children.” Thank you.
“At the moment, I feel empowered and clear-eyed… Like Moana on the other side of the horizon.”
Tweet this.
Do you ever think your job would be easier if you were a man?
Natalie: Definitely, but I think most jobs would be. For starters, I’d get paid more. So that makes it easier off the bat. Secondly, as in most jobs, people would take me more seriously. Especially as a director and writer. I’m sure there are a lot more reasons it’d be easier, but those are the big ones.
June Diane: I’m married to a man and we have very similar struggles (always wanting more out of our careers, always struggling with feeling “less than” as an artist) but I also have particular fears and concerns that (for me) feel specifically female (likability or lack there of, sexuality and too much of it/too little of it, reluctance to self promote) I think in general being a human (if you are awake to the experience) can be very challenging (men need healing for their role as oppressors/maintainers of the patriarchy as much as women need healing as the oppressed — we have both lost our humanity in this struggle). I feel this as a white person who benefits (through no merit of my own) from the white supremacist society we live in. I don’t wish to be in someone else’s shoes, but I wish to dismantle the racist patriarchal society I live in as it both oppresses me and supports me.
Kulap, you’re the only female show-runner/EP alongside four male EP’s on Bajillion Dollar Propertie$ on Seeso, has there been a time when it felt your gender held you back?
Kulap: No, probably because I have the final say on all matters concerning the show. Scott Aukerman, David Jargowsky, Thomas Lennon and R. Ben Garant continue to be incredibly supportive and I’ve benefited greatly from their experience and input. Fortunately, I’ve been afforded the space necessary to come into my own.
Do you have any specific anecdotes of gender bias?
Kulap: When we were interviewing department heads before production of Season 1, the old school men tended to direct their questions to the male seated beside me. I did not appreciate that. With four seasons of the show under my belt, I am glad to be past the craning of necks looking for the man in charge.
Natalie: I have had people tell me to my face, and mean it, that women are not as funny as men. And so they don’t hire women. This is a real thing. I have had people tell me to sit in the back of the 12 passenger van when I’m already in the front seat (I get car sick) because my male peer might like to sit in the front. I am 100% sure I have been paid less than most of my male co-stars for the same or more work. I have been thought of as a silly actress when I present work that I’m trying to direct or write.
"I have had people tell me to my face, and mean it, that women are not as funny as men. And so they don’t hire women."
Tweet this.
June Diane: Before pitching a feature film to a studio, an older male producer hid my index cards around the room while I went to the bathroom. When I returned, he had me play the “hotter colder” game while I walked around trying to find them. He then also requested I take off the blazer I was wearing to see my tank top. I complied.
That all sounds truly awful. Where are the areas where Hollywood can make progress?
Kulap: We need more women in power/hiring positions in all aspects of the business. More men in these positions need to make it a priority to hire more women. Hire women. Recommend women. Advocate for women.
June: Every story shouldn’t have one black friend or one woman to create the illusion of inclusion. Diverse casts can support more than ONE! The same goes for writer’s rooms. We need to look at this idea of “we just want to hire the best people for the job” and ask ourselves what that means. Storytelling, at least in my experience, has been at it’s best with a million different perspectives and viewpoints and life experience.
Natalie: Equal pay, equal hire, be less afraid of women, understand that women-led movies and tv MAKE MONEY, be more intersectional with your support of women, cast out of the “ordinary”, give chances to female filmmakers who are small and starting out, encourage women to tell their own stories.
So on the topic of sexism. Fun! Natalie, Battle of the Sexes is a timely movie. Women are living in the aftermath of demanding equality. What was it like being a part of telling that story?
Natalie: It’s kind of terrible that it’s timely, isn’t it? But it somehow is. It somehow feels like we’ve been fighting for our rights for so long and some people have convinced themselves that we’ve won, but we haven’t. Not by a long shot. Sure, women in America have some things easier than in other countries, but we’re still so behind. It was wonderful to be a part of that story. To show people that weren’t around when this happened (like myself) that this fight is not new, it’s hard, and it’s worth it.
Why do you think it’s important to tell now?
Natalie: I think it will be important to tell for all of time. It’s important now because Billie Jean King accomplished something by fighting back. It gives us courage and tells us someone came before us. We can do it too. It will be important in the future, when hopefully rights are truly equal across the board, to tell the story of why then needed to fight for it.
Why do you think studios are reluctant to put as much money behind female-led movies?
June Diane: The long-standing idea has been that male viewers will not care about female narratives while female viewers will care about male narratives. They fear “female led” movies will have a smaller audience and so they won’t make as much money. Wonder Woman disproves this theory as do the MANY MOVIES LED BY WOMEN THAT HAVE MADE MONEY AT THE BOX OFFICE.
Speaking of rights being truly equal across the board, do you think wage parity will become a reality in Hollywood?
Kulap: I sure hope so.
June Diane: Yes.
Natalie: I am an optimistic person, despite my snarky tone. So I’m going to say yes.
What needs to change to get there?
Kulap: A long road of greenlights to prove that our stories and our leadership have the same value. Better yet, an open highway.
June: I would love the major Hollywood agencies to start a real dialogue about this [wage parity]. I would also love every actor/writer/director to bring up wage parity in every conversation they have about what they are getting paid.
June, you’re about to launch into some positive convo with your book The Badass Woman's Guide to Running for Office and Changing the World, coming out 2019. How are you badass and how do you want to change the world?
I’m badass in that I’m a working mom. The end! But also because I’m committed to working hard to politically engage in my world. I’m calling my reps and showing up as much as I possibly can. I am also doing the internal work (much harder and more painful) to figure out where I can dismantle the racist heteronormative sexist ideology I have accepted unconsciously.
“I’m badass in that I’m a working mom. The end!”
Tweet this.
How do you reconcile the liberal face of Hollywood against the ageism and sexism that exists?
June Diane: I don’t reconcile it! I am working hard to change it.
Natalie Morales: I don’t [either]. I don’t know how. The most I can say is that I don’t work with the sexists. I’m lucky enough to be able to afford not to. I can turn down a role if I don’t like it. I will work hard to give women jobs so that they can turn down roles if they don’t like them too.
Let’s end this end on a positive note. What have you seen in your industry that excites you?
June Diane: I love what Zoe Lister-Jones just did with Bandaid (hiring an all female crew). I’m so used to seeing so many men on sets I find the idea exciting and I would LOVE to work with an all female crew.
Natalie: Opportunity for women, and successful women extending a hand to younger, less experienced women.
Kulap: Social media continues to shine a bright light on gender and racial bias, pushing us forward to be representative of the country as a whole.
It’s been thrilling to see badass girlfriends of mine, wearing hats on top of hats and getting their projects produced. Shout out and shine on June Diane Raphael, Casey Wilson, Danielle Schneider, Andrea Savage, Jessica St. Clair, Lennon Parham, Naomi Scott… this list too goes on and on, but not long enough.
MORE FROM OUR BLOG
Actress & Director Zoe Lister-Jones Just Took on Hollywood in a Major Way
She's a bit of a Wonder Woman herself.
Zoe Lister-Jones does not drink coffee. In fact, the writer, director, actress, and producer of Band Aid, her new indie film, says “I don’t drink any caffeine.” If you rattled by this (what, how, why, how?) you’re not alone. But there’s a pretty simple reason.
“I never really started,” Lister-Jones shares. “I was a barista in high school at a coffee shop. I opened the shop one day at 5am and drank about six shots of espresso and got so violently ill that I’ve never gone back.” Espresso barfs aside, she still has her human share of the 4pm slump like the rest of us. But java does not jive with the NYU Tisch grad. Like a true artist, Zoe says, “I just suffer through it.”
Luckily, the only suffering in her new movie is that of the protagonist couple tortured by all of the things that torture married couples: Dishes, blowjobs, banality.
In Band Aid we’re witness to the world of Anna (Lister-Jones) and Ben (Adam Pally), a married pair hanging on by a pinky promise and some vows. Everything is out of tune, so the duo attempts to salvage their relationship by starting a band called the Dirty Dishes, turning all of their fights into songs.
The industry vet actress (did you know three-year-old Zoe starred in her mother’s short film?) and writer (her 2009 work for Breaking Upward was possibly the inspiration for Gwyneth Paltrow’s “conscious uncoupling,”) not only took on her first solo directorial role with Band Aid, but she challenged herself further.
Band Aid employed an all-female crew. From producer Natalia Anderson, director of photography Hilary Spera, and a team of female art directors, camera operators, electricians, sound editors— the WHOLE squad was women. Brooklyn Decker, who also stars in the film, told NPR, “Let me tell you, the efficiency on that set was unparalleled. These women are like, I have families to get home to. I have to feed my child at 6 o'clock. I've got to clean my house when I get home. Let's get this shit done, you know?”
As a first time director, Zoe understood that women face certain double-standards. “I think there was a part of me that was looking for as supportive an artistic community as possible.” She’s quick to clarify that she has “wonderful working relationships with a lot of men,” but acknowledges the female crew, “definitely shifted the energy on set in a way that was palpable and impacted the product for the better. The energy on set, it did feel more intimate. It was a really calm, quiet, and supportive energy that allowed for us to go to deeper places in some ways.”
She mentions the physical intimacy in the film. “As an actress, I felt my most free in those scenes to not be encountering the male gaze.” Others on crew and cast were quick to agree.
“I think what was so exciting every day was that as new actors came to set, immediately they all wanted to talk about the energetic shift that they were experiencing. And as the all-female set had normalized for those of us who had been on set for days or weeks, it was cool to get a fresh perspective on it.”
She also loved getting feedback from Pally, whom Zoe says was often the only male on set. “He now says he only wants to work with predominantly female crews or at least to push for more female crews. The decks are stacked against us. Until there is more equity you have to put more focus on it.”
She says, “I think as women we have to walk a tenuous tightrope. We have to be fearless in a lot of ways and lean into our confidence, especially in the workplace, but we also have to play the game because we also are still living in a patriarchy.”
Which brings up the fact that it’s not just Hollywood. Zoe is aware that the inequity exists across all industries (and is quick to praise Brooklyn Decker and Finery “that she’s moving into the tech space, especially as a woman.”)
Zoe claims that the idea that we’ve moved past any issues or injustices is the most dangerous flaw that continues to feed into these broken systems. “It does require such hyper-vigilance because we all have to confront our own biases every day. It requires so much self-awareness and awareness of others in a way that can be irritating to people. People want to continue on with their habits and way of life-- it’s hard for anyone to shift their lifestyle. We all get really stuck in our habits, especially when those habits have gone unchecked for so long. It requires work on everyone’s part.” For Zoe, putting in the work beyond the words is where change occurs.
“In Hollywood, when it comes to the gender disparity, the number of female directors and crew members has actually gotten worse in the last few years. We can talk about it, and talking about it is important, but so is walking the walk.” It’s exactly why making a movie this way was so important to her.
The LA Times agreed, taking a big stance with their headline: “Zoe Lister-Jones made 'Band Aid' with an all-female crew. Your move, Hollywood.” “That headline shook me. It’s an amazing headline. It’s something that people in the industry definitely read. “And,” the director adds, “it’s scary to be the face of that headline.”
Her indie film also happened to open the same weekend as Patty Jenkins’ superhero box office triumph, Wonder Woman. “It’s been an incredible moment in history to even be a small part of,” Zoey says. “The fact that we opened on the same weekend, it wasn’t something any of us really thought about, but to be in conversation with what Patty Jenkins and Wonder Woman mean in the grand scheme of things and what Band Aid means in the grand scheme of things is really cool. It’s nice to see it all working together.”
Guess she doesn’t need caffeine— she’s a bit of a Wonder Woman herself.
Arianna Schioldager is Editor-in-Chief at Create & Cultivate. You can follow her @ariannawrotethis.
Band Aid is currently playing in New York City and Los Angeles and will open in Chicago and other major cities on Friday, June 16.
Photos: Zoe Lister-Jones/Band Aid
Photo Credits: Mister Lister Films
MORE FROM OUR BLOG
Brooklyn Decker On Why Tech Is More Supportive Than Hollywood
Sure it's 94% male, but who run the world?
Photo credit: Smith House Photography
When Brooklyn Decker and Whitney Casey, CEO and founder of Finery, the new online platform that's been described by users as "the Clueless closet on steroids," took the C&C stage at SXSW last Sunday, they broke down the realities of being women in tech.
Alas, truth bombs are kind of Decker's MO. Of her friend and the company's Chief Design Officer, Casey told the Austin audience, "There is always one girlfriend in everyone’s life who will tell them the truth and that is Brooklyn Decker."
“It’s brutal,” chimed in the actor. “But it’s the truth.”
A former anchor who has won two Emmys and is a published author, Casey said she's had plenty of bad ideas before Finery. And when it came to bringing the idea to Decker, she came armed with a Powerpoint presentation. “Yes," she said, "for my own friend, because I knew she would want to know.” Decker did. (It worked.)
What unfolded, power point by power point, was a service that might revolutionize the way women shop and dress. With patent pending technology that harvests data that already exists online, Finery skips over the manual labor part of an creating an online closet. At its simplest Finery culls through your email (and thereby every purchase you've ever made) and loads it into a virtual closet.
“There’s all sorts of software to manage your finances, your travel, your music, but we found the millennial women will spend more than 250-300,000 dollars on clothes in their lifetime," shared Casey. "So why isn’t there something to manage your wardrobe that’s not analog? Some sort of tech that could find anything you’ve ever purchased and put into a wardrobe?” Therein is the meat of Finery, the world's first wardrobe operating system, and the reason Brooklyn came onboard.
But making a career shift is difficult for anyone-- let alone someone doing it under the public microscope.
"Modeling to acting is the most cliché transition one can make," Decker shared about her first career switch. "The biggest challenge is that you’re making big mistakes on a pretty big stage. You don’t have the luxury of making mistakes in private or on a small scale." But in a way it prepared her for this next role. "It would be silly or ignorant of me to say that it hasn’t opened a ton of doors, but people are instantly skeptical and people instantly doubt you. I certainly don’t come from a tech background. You have to work that much harder and find women who are willing to help you along the way and teach you-- teach you how to pitch to a VC, for instance, because how does one learn how to do that?" the Austin-based actor asked.
Photo credit: Smith House Photography
It's something they did, first going the traditional $ route— approaching VCs.
"It did not go well," said Casey. "One asked us to set him up on a date. So we decided to go with angel investors-- they are all women." Women like Miroslava Duma and Decker herself who is an investor in the company. “Also,” added the author, “because they wanted 30 percent of the company.”
"Luckily with women in technology— it’s an incredibly supportive environment," said Decker. "Without those women I wouldn’t have been able to make the transition.” Beta users include Man Repeller Leandra Medine and Lauren Santo Domingo.
Casey told the crowd that figuring out your bottom line when you’re first starting is all about looking into the future. “You have think about the company when it is wildly successfully,” shared the CEO. “Look at what 20 percent of that success means. You also need to think about your employees. As a startup you’re not going to be able to hire the people that you want without giving them equity. And as a startup you want everybody there to have equity because when things do go wrong you can look at them at say, ’This is your company too.' That’s our mantra. Everybody who enters is part of Finery. And the more you give to a VC the less you have to recruit really great talent. The more you keep giving away, the less your employees are gonna get. You always have to be thinking about your employees first.”
"You always have to be thinking about your employees first.”
Tweet this.
"It was disheartening to realize the kind of things I needed to do to get into these VCs,” shared Casey. “Calling a friend of a friend of a friend… what if I didn’t have those friends? It should be a meritocracy. Money should be available for every good idea out there. I found that was not the case.”
Even the connections Brooklyn and Whitney did have, didn't mean they'd it was a shoo-in. Sometimes they would't even open the Finery deck.
“I have this crazy thing that everyone should have called MixMax. I know when you open my email and I know when you’ve opened up a link,” said Casey. This service gave the pair a competitive edge when walking into pitch meetings-- they knew if they had to start at the beginning or if they could launch into why Finery is different and why it will be successful. Their other bit of advice? Decker told the C&C crowd, “Be incredibly well-researched on the market that you’re entering. Understand it so well and it will help you prepare for any meeting.”
“You have to sit back listen. And then do your own spiel. Know every single one of your competitors so you know your value add,” said Casey. “Your value prop[ostion] is the most important.”
Photo credit: Smith House Photography
Despite the uphill VC climb, neither women were deterred. In fact, Decker told the crowd that she's been invigorated by the community of women she's encountered.
“Coming from the Hollywood side of things I have never seen a more supportive bunch of women than I have seen in tech. They really do come together. It’s difficult as a young female, but you can do it.”
"I have never seen a more supportive bunch of women than I have seen in tech."
Tweet this.
Decker brought up tech investor Jesse Draper of Halogen Ventures, an early stage venture capital fund focused on female founded consumer technologies. “She has no skin in our game, but as a female in technology she wanted to introduce us to other people. That’s what women are doing. When she [Draper] invests in a company, she tells them once you’re successful you must invest in other female-run, female-founded companies. That’s a really strong choice. And it’s a place we want to get with our company.”
“Look we can’t all be founders, we can’t all have money to invest," Casey elaborated. "But we can all buy from women, use products that women make, and then we will all be successful.” She also told the crowd: "If I were a young woman right now I would learn how to code." Simple, but truthful advice. 94% of tech startups are male. It's up to us to change it.
“Women are successful because they support each other,” added Decker, who also gave attendees some pertinent info. Not everyone has access to capital or app developers, but the actress explained, “There are now apps to help you build apps. They provide a standard map. It won’t be super innovative but it will show proof of concept. Also, in all of these big cities there are development bootcamps now. The whole point is to give people jobs. If you have a startup idea and you’re far enough along, I highly recommend tapping into that resource.”
As for who Finery wants to tap? Casey wants the average woman who wears 10% of what's in her closet. Decker got a little more specific. “I don’t want to be a total cliché, but Beyonce,” the Chief Design Officer said about her dream user. “She has so many events, has her kid, two more on the way. She’s our user, she’s our girl.”